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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 12:35 am 
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Location: Parkville, Maryland
tomp wrote:
There is a big difference between preferring alterations to the sound on the recorded medium and stating that DSP increases noise and distortion. You have to go with what is pleasing to you regardless of the accuracy. But to denigrate a technology with false claims because it doesn't please you is, in my opinion, going down the rabbit hole.

WOW! This is turning into a pissing contest! :wtf:

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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 9:56 am 
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It doesn't have to be. Regardless if it is vinyl vs digital, tubes vs transistors, if the implementation is correct, the sound will be great. I have heard very good sounds with all technologies. You want to turn it into a pissing contest? Proclaim there is only one way and back that up with statements that don't hold up in the face of facts. As I have said many times, whatever you do to get a sound that makes you happy is the correct way for you, but probably not for someone else who is looking for something different.


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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 10:01 am 
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Joined: January 15th, 2015, 7:19 am
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Location: Baltimore MD
This whole industry is one big pissing contest.
The only purpose of most of the mainstream reviews is to sell products no matter what they sound like to perpetuate their own lively hood.
The majority of this industry is a scam and has nothing to do with the music.
I use a non-oversampling DAC, a TT I bought in the middle ninties, with interconnects and speaker wires I made over 20 years ago, listening to speakers that were originally manufactured in early 1960s.
I have upgraded the TT six years ago, Rebuilt the Quad 57's, and done a few other tweaks, but now I just listen and enjoy. No stress about what the new thing is, or whether I can iprove things.
The sound is pure, emotional and non fatiguing. I am happy with my system and there it is.
The work that Walt has done over the years is quite evident when you hear his system. It is one of the purest I have ever heard, far better that any of the mega million dollar system you hear at the shows. I went to Florida, Dallas and of course CAF. There were only a few notable systems. And those were with out any DSP, room treatments, or oversampling DACs. Just well deisgned, sorted out pieces of kit.


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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 10:35 am 
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Pelliott321 wrote:
This whole industry is one big pissing contest.
The only purpose of most of the mainstream reviews is to sell products no matter what they sound like to perpetuate their own lively hood.
The majority of this industry is a scam and has nothing to do with the music.
I use a non-oversampling DAC, a TT I bought in the middle ninties, with interconnects and speaker wires I made over 20 years ago, listening to speakers that were originally manufactured in early 1960s.
I have upgraded the TT six years ago, Rebuilt the Quad 57's, and done a few other tweaks, but now I just listen and enjoy. No stress about what the new thing is, or whether I can iprove things.
The sound is pure, emotional and non fatiguing. I am happy with my system and there it is.
The work that Walt has done over the years is quite evident when you hear his system. It is one of the purest I have ever heard, far better that any of the mega million dollar system you hear at the shows. I went to Florida, Dallas and of course CAF. There were only a few notable systems. And those were with out any DSP, room treatments, or oversampling DACs. Just well deisgned, sorted out pieces of kit.


Amen to what Walt has done on his journey.


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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 11:34 am 
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Joined: July 8th, 2016, 4:34 pm
Posts: 617
Again from an AI search -

Floyd Toole's research on expectation bias reveals that listeners' judgments of audio quality are heavily influenced by factors other than sound, such as brand reputation, price, appearance, and suggestion from a salesperson
. His experiments, often using double-blind listening tests, demonstrated that when these biases are removed, people show a remarkable similarity in what they prefer: a neutral, uncolored, and accurate reproduction of sound.
Key findings on expectation bias

Non-audio cues matter: Toole's work demonstrated that elements external to the sound itself can change a person's perception of audio quality. For example, a listener may rate a speaker more highly because of its price or expensive-looking finish, even when they cannot distinguish it from a less-expensive speaker in a blind test.

The "sight over sound" syndrome: In audio evaluations, visual cues and pre-existing beliefs can override what a listener actually hears. When listeners were given a chance to compare speakers blindly, their "personal preference" disappeared, and most gravitated toward the same objectively accurate speakers.

Double-blind testing reveals true preferences: To combat expectation bias, Toole and his colleagues at Harman pioneered rigorous double-blind listening tests. In these tests, neither the listener nor the experimenter knows which product is being evaluated. This methodology ensures that the listener's ratings are based purely on what they hear, rather than any pre-existing biases.

Correlation between measurement and preference: Using these controlled tests, Toole confirmed a strong correlation between objective measurements and subjective listener preference. The loudspeakers that consistently ranked highest in blind tests were those with the flattest, smoothest on- and off-axis frequency response.

Individual differences are minor: Toole's research found that when the biasing influences of brand, price, and appearance are removed, individual listening preferences are more similar than the audio industry had previously assumed.


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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 12:50 pm 
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Joined: January 15th, 2015, 7:19 am
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Location: Baltimore MD
Should not your audio preference be a natural sounding system that approximates live music?
Remenber the MQA debacle. Highly praised until it wasn't and then it disappeared. Hires (anything that requires oversampling) to me is the same. All I hear is noise and distortion imbedded with the music. My simple 96k DAC sounds on par to my vinyl rig. Internet radio sounded better than my rebuilt Scott tuner that I sold it.


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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 1:06 pm 
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 1831
Location: Parkville, Maryland
Pelliott321 wrote:
This whole industry is one big pissing contest.
The only purpose of most of the mainstream reviews is to sell products no matter what they sound like to perpetuate their own lively hood.
The majority of this industry is a scam and has nothing to do with the music.
I use a non-oversampling DAC, a TT I bought in the middle ninties, with interconnects and speaker wires I made over 20 years ago, listening to speakers that were originally manufactured in early 1960s.
I have upgraded the TT six years ago, Rebuilt the Quad 57's, and done a few other tweaks, but now I just listen and enjoy. No stress about what the new thing is, or whether I can iprove things.
The sound is pure, emotional and non fatiguing. I am happy with my system and there it is.
The work that Walt has done over the years is quite evident when you hear his system. It is one of the purest I have ever heard, far better that any of the mega million dollar system you hear at the shows. I went to Florida, Dallas and of course CAF. There were only a few notable systems. And those were with out any DSP, room treatments, or oversampling DACs. Just well deisgned, sorted out pieces of kit.

AMEN!

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 Post subject: Re: A Little About JBL
PostPosted: September 14th, 2025, 2:09 pm 
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Joined: July 17th, 2016, 6:24 am
Posts: 1154
brombo wrote:
Again from an AI search -

Floyd Toole's research on expectation bias reveals that listeners' judgments of audio quality are heavily influenced by factors other than sound, such as brand reputation, price, appearance, and suggestion from a salesperson
. His experiments, often using double-blind listening tests, demonstrated that when these biases are removed, people show a remarkable similarity in what they prefer: a neutral, uncolored, and accurate reproduction of sound.
Key findings on expectation bias

Non-audio cues matter: Toole's work demonstrated that elements external to the sound itself can change a person's perception of audio quality. For example, a listener may rate a speaker more highly because of its price or expensive-looking finish, even when they cannot distinguish it from a less-expensive speaker in a blind test.

The "sight over sound" syndrome: In audio evaluations, visual cues and pre-existing beliefs can override what a listener actually hears. When listeners were given a chance to compare speakers blindly, their "personal preference" disappeared, and most gravitated toward the same objectively accurate speakers.

Double-blind testing reveals true preferences: To combat expectation bias, Toole and his colleagues at Harman pioneered rigorous double-blind listening tests. In these tests, neither the listener nor the experimenter knows which product is being evaluated. This methodology ensures that the listener's ratings are based purely on what they hear, rather than any pre-existing biases.

Correlation between measurement and preference: Using these controlled tests, Toole confirmed a strong correlation between objective measurements and subjective listener preference. The loudspeakers that consistently ranked highest in blind tests were those with the flattest, smoothest on- and off-axis frequency response.

Individual differences are minor: Toole's research found that when the biasing influences of brand, price, and appearance are removed, individual listening preferences are more similar than the audio industry had previously assumed.


The problem with Floyd's double-blind testing is, it gave the listeners only at 15-30 second snippet of music on each speaker. When was the last time you walked into an audio showroom and auditioned a speaker for 15secons?

The rationale behind the 15second listening span is the fact that we only remember short passages of music. But in reality, we "experience" the music which requires lot longer exposure to music.


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