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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 9:22 am 
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Another really intriguing tube is the Bendix 6977. This is a 9 pin mini single carbon plate low mu pass tube, like half of a 6080. Insanely well made. I have a pr that I d like to get into a line stage someday.

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/131/6/6877.pdf

BTW: Here's an interesting document on 6AS7s for audio

http://www.clarisonus.com/Archives/TubeTheory/6AS7G.pdf

RCA forbids paralleling sections but they don't spell out why. I guess they don't like OTLs.


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 9:39 am 
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Quote:
Another really intriguing tube is the Bendix 6977.


I've got a bunch of 6336As I'd like to play with sometime ;)

Still have at least 10 NOS 5998s as well....

J-ROB wrote:
RCA forbids paralleling sections but they don't spell out why. I guess they don't like OTLs.


In my experience 6AS7s/6080s don't typically match very well section-to-section. Without some means to balance the currents in each section, one section is going to end up with all the current...

Roscoe

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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 9:41 am 
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One ohm plate resistors are what Atma-Sphere suggests and uses.


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 9:43 am 
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Stuart Polansky wrote:
One ohm plate resistors are what Atma-Sphere suggests and uses.


Those are there as fuses, 1ohm in the plate circuit isn't going to do a damn thing to balance the currents....

Roscoe

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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 9:52 am 
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You are correct, Roscoe.

I think Ralph sorts the Russian 6AS7s he uses in the Atma-Spheres. I think the 1 ohm resistors are test points for current balance.

I've heard stories of runaway grid current issues with these tubes also. The specified 1 meg grid max resistance might be optimistic and invite problems.

That is one of the things I liked about the Sears design, control and balance are designed in.


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 14th, 2015, 10:33 am 
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I was wrong. I misremembered. I definitely have seen a design (may have been 807s) where, in the article, the author suggested the use of 1 ohm plate loads to prevent current hogging. He was using parallel push-pull sets.

Atma-Sphere uses cathode resistors, no plate resistors, in the Circlotron design. He does advise 5 ohm resistors if using American 6AS7 tubes. Somehow, I equated that with current hogging due to mismatched sections.

I'll have to look back at some articles and find the small value plate resistor reference.

The cathode resistors are definitely not used as fuses, LOL!

From Ralph in a diyaudio post:

Quote:
FWIW there are some fundamental misconceptions here, the first being that all tubes are equal which they are not. From the very beginning of OTL technology in the early 50s, OTLs have used low-impedance tubes. That may sound oxymoronic to some, but we are talking about tubes that handle a lot of current and don't take much plate voltage to do it. Hence: the 6BQ6 above is a poor choice to make power, and the 6AS7G is an easy choice. According to the post above, that's 8 power tubes for 40 watts into 8 ohms. Eight 6AS7Gs can do 60 watts into 8 ohms, and that is running class A.

The 'room heater' thing is a common misconception, based on the idea that lots of tubes make lots of heat, which they don't (they make a little, with the exception being the 6C33 that has a very hot filament). What makes the heat, at least in our amps, is the class A operation. You can run the amps all day in Standby and at the end of the day, grab the tubes and hang on to them without getting burned. But from stone cold, 30 second warmup, and then turn them on- 30 seconds later they are pretty hot! Its the class A that makes heat- so **thats** what makes for a room heater, tube or transistor.

If you run feedback, THD can be in the 0.00?? range at full power. I like to run them without feedback and depending on setup the THD can be between 0.5 to 3% at full power. It always amazes me how many people have the misconceptions seen in the above post- after 30 years I'm still responding to comments like this.

BTW, American 6AS7s can do more power (eight of them will do 80 watts into 8 ohms) but they are the devil to keep running. If you look in the RCA receiving tube manual: 'fixed bias not recommended'... -well that is precisely what we have to do, so you have to use either the Russian 6H13C or the Chinese 6N13 which is their equivalent type. They seem to hold up fine with fixed bias service, as does the Sylvania 6AS7, which is rare.

If you are dead set on using American tubes, it is possible. The cathode resistance must be increased to a minimum of 5 ohms 5 watts (which is a good idea anyway). If the tubes are NOS they must be preconditioned for 72 hours to minimize arcing.

A note on the B+ power transformer! We are not running a bipolar supply. Circlotrons aren't set up that way. They are the only circuit I know of that allows true push-pull without an output transformer and without complementary devices. So you need two equal floating power supplies, so either 2 identical power transformers per monoblock or a unit with dual secondaries.

Each supply will have about 140V output. You'll want each one to be rated at double the idle current at the minimum. In this case our idle current is about 60mA per section, so each supply will idle at 240 mA if 4 power tubes total are used. The supply should be capable of at least twice that under continuous duty.

The 6AS7G has a 6.3V filament that needs 2.5 Amps. You will need a sizable transformer to run them, but I have found them off-the-shelf. For a monoblock just using 4 power tubes, we need 10 Amps continuous. Its nice to have it in a dual secondary, so each phase has its own winding, but its not essential.


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 15th, 2015, 8:50 am 
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Posts: 261
Location: Highland, MD
Stuart,

Couldn't you use a 3.6K:8 output transformer if you don't want to go OTL?

Maybe this winter I'll finish my phono amp, then start back on a 6AS7 OTL test bed.

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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 15th, 2015, 9:05 am 
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I poked around in my stash of stuff and discovered I have most of the stuff required to build the Shoog DC7 Mk II so I have ordered the few parts I need and have started building. Naturally the fit and finish will be down at my usual woeful level.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/160059-dc7-mkii-new-schade-6080-amp.html

Ebay has provided a pair of the 12L8GT for 99 cents plus shipping and I have a few 6080's.

ray


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 15th, 2015, 11:13 am 
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ratbagp wrote:
I poked around in my stash of stuff and discovered I have most of the stuff required to build the Shoog DC7 Mk II so I have ordered the few parts I need and have started building. Naturally the fit and finish will be down at my usual woeful level.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/160059-dc7-mkii-new-schade-6080-amp.html

Ebay has provided a pair of the 12L8GT for 99 cents plus shipping and I have a few 6080's.

ray


Awesome, I can't wait to hear it! Now we are talking about a meet!

As for the cosmetics, well there are lots of us bottom feeders who don't mind at all!

In fact, some of us are angry at the high bar set by some of the club members! LMAO!

Kind of like the other cops are pissed at the cop who writes the most tickets!


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 Post subject: Re: Class A or ???????
PostPosted: September 15th, 2015, 8:19 pm 
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Joined: March 2nd, 2013, 2:43 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Potomac, MD
Stuart,

You don't have to do the ZOTL, but as Guy suggested a 3.6 k P-P output transformer can be used to get the equivalent operating load as I do in the ZOTL. Now I like to light-load the tubes, and this is why my power went up when I loaded my amp with 4 ohms. The ZOTL is an ideal output transformer emulation circuit, and they are basically equivalent except the ZOTL reduces the problems associated with output transformer parasitics. My 3.6 k loading becomes 1.8 k P-P loading with a 4-ohm load. So you can pick an output transformer in between these figures and the 6AS7 will work just fine. You can supply the center tap of the transformer with 184 V if you ground the cathode, and apply a grid bias of - 80 V and you should match my operating conditions.

David


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