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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 1:12 pm 
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Joined: April 4th, 2016, 4:07 pm
Posts: 35
Who is "they"?


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 2:46 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm
Posts: 457
mix4fix wrote:
Do not call them protestors. They lost that right/Right years ago (morally/Constitutionally).

Protestors don't riot, shoot, loot, attack, murder, burn, destroy, vandalize, and whatever else they have done.


A rather broad brush you are painting with.

The right to protest is enshrined in the Constitution. Look at the 1st amendment. We all have that right regardless of ethnicity, creed, political affiliation, sexual orientatation, age, etc. It cannot be taken away. Just keep it peaceable, as the overwheming majority do. I understand the term "peaceable" is somewhat open to debate. However, a peaceable assembly that is provoked or attacked by excessive police action can be easily tripped into anger and lawless behavior. And there are those even in a peaceful protest whose passion may override their inhibitions and break the law. And there are agents-provocateurs, opportunists, and poseurs who create mayhem that is blamed on the assembly as a whole.

People are rightly passionate about injustice, oppression, inequality, grievance with government action or positions. Sometimes it does get out of hand against the symbols of power and oppression, but there is a long history of that, and I seem to recall a little "teaparty" in 1773 that kicked things off to form this country. Wanton destruction of private property should not be tolerated AND enforced as the crime that it is, however, people attacking the symbols of oppression such as statues of Confederate leaders, being traitors to this very country to preserve their peculiar institution of enslavement of fellow human beings, and erected decades after the historical events to honor them as heroes and impose power and authority over a freed yet re-enslaved people, have the overiding moral authority to overturn those symbols. And what about those rightfully protesting about the unequal application of justice in our society, the excessive use of deadly force against individuals suspected nothing more than passing a suspect $20 bill. Is it right for a life to be worth $20? Police, armed to the teeth are so afraid of the people that they are supposed to serve, that they kill with little or no provocation, indiscriminately unleashing a hail of bullets to wipe out family members sleeping in their own home. Would you not think this would make you mad enough to get a little out of line if it happened to you and your friends, not on an occasional basis, but seeming all the time? It is really hard to maintain control when you are feeling this passion. Toppling few cheap bronze plated zinc statues is a minor infraction compared with unjustifiable deaths.

David


Last edited by David McGown on July 1st, 2020, 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 3:17 pm 
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Joined: June 22nd, 2013, 11:00 am
Posts: 796
You can see the evidence of the "protestors" in every major city.

Every single one of these riots was over a criminal. Did you research how this latest one performed a home invasion on a pregnant woman?

But, last I checked, counterfitting is a Federal Crime. Destruction of property, private/state/federal, is a crime.

Please read the First Anendment, and how it says "peacefully" assemble.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 4:44 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm
Posts: 457
mix4fix wrote:
You can see the evidence of the "protestors" in every major city.

Every single one of these riots was over a criminal. Did you research how this latest one performed a home invasion on a pregnant woman?

But, last I checked, counterfitting is a Federal Crime. Destruction of property, private/state/federal, is a crime.

Please read the First Anendment, and how it says "peacefully" assemble.


Ahem, I pointed out the First amendment at the start of my comment. I read it.

It is not the crime, it is the justice that is the problem! Someone can have a rap sheet a yard long, but passing a fake $20 is not and should not be a death penalty. In fact, most people pass a counterfeit bill are not even aware it is bad, they get it from someone else, sometimes even a bank, and are innocently and embarrassing caught. They are the victims, since it means they had money stolen from them in the change given to them in the previous transaction. Counterfitting IS a crime, and KNOWINGLY passing counterfeit bills into circulation is as well. However, who gives *some* cops the right to be judge, jury, and executioner for a petty crime. And why do they not recognize that the punishment should fit the crime, and that it is better to let a petty offense pass, than initiate an action that acts as a one-way trip to someones' death. Police in some localities started cutting back on high speed chases for minor traffic infractions, since the risk to life and property was greater than the crime itself.

And what about the definition of a "criminal". It *could* be said that nearly all of us are criminals, it is just most of us have not been caught, tried and convicted. How many of us have skirted the law on sometime? Usually, it is a public safety type law such as a traffic violation (actually a civil not criminal infraction, unless alcohol related or as result of an accident), or a truly victimless crime such as illicit possession/use of a controlled substance. Sometimes it is a financial or tax fraud crime. Other times, it is actual or implied violence that gets swept under the rug such as a fight, spousal abuse, sexual or ethnic abuse, etc. that can exist in otherwise "law abiding" communities. It really depends on enforcement, where it is lightly enforced, there is little "apparent" crime, where it is oppressively enforced, people are going to be charged with even very minor infractions as a means of harrassment and control, which then begins a cycle of petty criminality for individuals in that community. And of course the poverty and drugs that causes the desperation that drives much of criminal behavior. Look at Ferguson.

Yes, there are serious crimes of violence and property that demand strong and swift enforcement. My point is that a "criminal" can be petty, or serious, it is a matter of degree. Being a "criminal" is again a broad brush. One can be a reformed serious criminal who has served his or her time/penalty and have returned as peaceful, law abiding and productive member of society. Are they still considered a "criminal" for life. What about those who have been charged but not yet tried or even convicted, are they "criminals" without given a chance to prove their innocence (actually up to the state to prove their guilt). Finally, as far as I can tell, "criminals" are living, breathing human beings, entitled to live their natural lives, either freely as law abiders, or under restrictions imposed by society if they choose otherwise.

Being a "criminal" is NO justification for depriving the same of their life, unless absolutely necessary because their actions pose an eminent endangerment to the lives other human beings. When it is clear it is NOT the case, i.e., where law enforcement acted grossly and irresponsibly out of proportion to the situation, then it does not matter if the victim was a criminal or not. It was the enforcement action that is the problem, not the victim or any alleged criminality that they might be accused of or is on their record. The problem is the persistent history of such overreaction, and the communities have finally had enough.

Being a "criminal" doesn't matter.

David


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 5:07 pm 
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Joined: June 22nd, 2013, 11:00 am
Posts: 796
There is not an epidemic of blacks being killed by cops. Whites get killed more by cops. Where is our riot?

How about we don't commit crimes? Is it that hard? You don't rob anybody. You don't harm anybody. You don't rip anybody off regardless of how much it is.

How about we don't resist arrest? Cooporate, and you will not get jacked up.

Stop watching CNN. You are getting brainwashed with the lies and bias.


Last edited by mix4fix on July 1st, 2020, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 5:55 pm 
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Joined: July 17th, 2016, 6:24 am
Posts: 806
David McGown wrote:
Shashi,

Deaths are a lagging indicator by two weeks or more. We have not seen the death rate associated with the current level of outbreak yet in those states most impacted.

It doesn't matter if more people end up surviving, if they end up taking up space in the emergency room, then it denies availability and services to those with other life threatening conditions. The whole masking and stay-at-home recommendations are intended to prevent the overload of health services by slowing transmission in the population. It also helps protect the most vulnerable among use from exposure to the virus. It does not do the country any favors to lose vital health workers due to COVID-19 or burn-out, or institute triage to let people die. What happens if I have a heart attack or other health emergency and the emergency rooms are full? We may be over the crisis locally, but no reason why it cannot come back if we loosen up too much.

The fact that this can be passed along by asymptomatic carriers makes this virus insidious. A temperature check is just a rough screening for symptomatic carriers. It means nothing for the asymptomatic in lieu of actual on-the-spot and reliable testing, and even then, there is good percentage false negatives.

If you rely on statistics from states like Florida, who have been manipulating their data to make it appear they are in better shape than they actually are to justify their failed decision to reopen, then maybe the CDC statistics are not so rosy.

People need to stop making this a political issue and think both the immediate and long term health consequence to OTHERS in addition to their own personal risk, which increases significantly as one is older (I will be 65 in October). Do you (metaphorically speaking) KNOW you do not have the virus, or just think you don't have it because you have no symptoms? Can you be sure when you venture out socially among the community.

I am firmly not going anywhere except as necessary for essentials in order to minimize my personal risk. I admit I am very fortunate to have the liberty to do this, in that I am working full time remotely at home, and therefore has not forced me into making the difficult decisions about risking my health showing up physically at work, at a potentially hazardous or high exposure environment just to have income to survive. It is difficult for me to imagine what people like that are going through in their minds, and all I can do is be sympathetic to the decisions they have to make. I know that opening up means those out of work or underemployed will have a chance to work again. But they do so at risk to themselves and others. It is horrible to have to put one's life at risk for a paycheck at a job that is in normal circumstances is relatively risk free. Those like me, basically force those decisions to happen. Online shopping (lifeline for both essential and non-essential products not available with store closures), employs people deemed "essential" in the distribution chain, working long hours, under high stress, and exposure to others who may be ill. I am both increasing their risk, as well as employing them so they can live. It is an ethical dilemma. For the economy to improve, I have to spend, but in doing so, I am both helping and hurting people.

Sorry, this has gotten to be overly long and philosophical, but in short, why take risks when it is not necessary?

David


David,

I think you misunderstood my motivation. I was just trying to emphasize the science behind the numbers in the numbers.

For example when you claim Florida manipulated data, I can bet you have no evidence of that. There are two factors for low numbers in Florida, 1. Protecting nursing homes, 2. Sun belt state.

US has two distinct temperatur zones, cold states of the north and not states of the south. Virus behave differently in hot and cold temperature zones. See the 2 minute video I posted earlier in this thread.

On the Subject of deaths, there is discrepancy between the numbers reported by CDC and search engines like google. looks like CDC is doing a meticulous categorization of deaths where as other sources are grouping all deaths into a single category.

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Shashi


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 6:22 pm 
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 1240
Location: Parkville, Maryland
Is there an end to this! :angry-banghead:

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Walt


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 7:01 pm 
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Joined: January 15th, 2015, 7:19 am
Posts: 1227
Location: Baltimore MD
N.T.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 1st, 2020, 7:33 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 3:31 pm
Posts: 277
SoundMods wrote:
Is there an end to this! :angry-banghead:

Not until there's justice for all Americans, not just some.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am 
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Joined: June 4th, 2013, 2:39 pm
Posts: 257
Shashi, two things. I'm afraid you're drawing the wrong conclusions from your video "expert." What Hope-Simmons helped to confirm was that influenza outbreaks are seasonal and most common in the months before and after the winter solstice. The prevalence of flu switches *hemispheres* throughout the year, since the southern hemisphere experiences winter in the middle months of the year. It has *nothing* to do with "cold" or "hot" states in the continental US. This is why Covid-19 has experts so alarmed. Flu epidemics in Northern temperate climes such as ours have historically subsided in warmer weather.

(You'll also note in comments to that video that the author has played fast and loose with graphs and curves, but whatever. The video really does little if anything to refute the effectiveness of lockdowns.)

Secondly, if you look at your favorite CDC chart today you will see that the numbers for recent weeks are constantly being revised upward, since there is a lag in death reporting procedures around the country. Even as control of the outbreaks in New York and New Jersey has led to a decline in the death toll, the explosion of cases in the South and Southwest will inevitable bend that curve upward again. And while the death toll may remain lower for various reasons, this is little cause for cheer when one sees the virus spreading virtually uncontrolled in more and more regions of the US.


Last edited by Grover Gardner on July 2nd, 2020, 9:55 am, edited 5 times in total.

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