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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 10:44 am 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm
Posts: 914
I would like to add to Grover's comment regarding Dr. Samadi, and why one should approach his observations/recommendations with skepticism. First and foremost, just because one is a doctor in one specialty does not mean they have the authority to comment and advise in an area well outside their area of specialty. Dr. Samadi is a Urological Oncologist specializing in Robotic surgery. That is a long way away from infectious disease and epidemiology. It is not to say that he does not have the basic general medical education to translate and communicate some of the complexities of medicine to lay people, much like Dr. Sanjay Gupta, but as to being able to present expert analysis and advice outside of his area of specialty, I would not trust him over the experts in the field. In fact, it would be malpractice to offer such advice in an authoritative fashion. To give an example, a civil engineer and electronics engineer have some basic engineering training in common, however that does not make highway engineer be able to offer intelligent comment on computer chip design, or a electronics engineer to advise on concrete structural design. I am sure that Dr. Samadi would have reservations about an infection disease specialist to comment and advise on the appropriate procedures in prostrate surgery.

Dr. Samadi, like other medical specialists dealing with elective procedures, have been financially impacted by COVID-19, and has a personal motivation to see things return to normalcy. I am just saying that there may be a implicit bias to what he says.

David


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 12:23 pm 
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Joined: July 17th, 2016, 6:24 am
Posts: 1099
David and Grover,

You guys are going after the messenger instead of the message. Samadi is quoting the information that is present on the CDC website. I dont see either of you addressing that.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 12:50 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 3:31 pm
Posts: 363
Seems relevant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/busi ... e=Homepage


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 12:59 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm
Posts: 914
The messenger and the message cannot be divorced when there is a filter, interpretation and/or bias imposed on the data by said messenger. We do not need talking heads on TV or Twitter telling us what we need to know, we need the experts in the field to have the freedom to communicate and advise us with confidence there is no political bias or agenda. I do not know enough to interpret the really meaning behind the data. Currently, because of political meddling and pressure by the Administration, and the use of surrogates in the media, trust is difficult.

That is it for me. I do not want to become a victim on the path to Herd Immunity. Enough said.

David


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 1:04 pm 
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 1701
Location: Parkville, Maryland
Cogito wrote:
David and Grover,

You guys are going after the messenger instead of the message. Samadi is quoting the information that is present on the CDC website. I dont see either of you addressing that.

Denial can be a dangerous mental state. Think about it.

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Walt


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 1:16 pm 
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Joined: July 17th, 2016, 6:24 am
Posts: 1099
OK, you don’t believe Samadi, so you discount what he quoted from CDC website without verifying it yourself.

What about Atlantic Magazine article? They are also referring to the exact info from CDC.

you believe Sanjay Gupta without verifying the veracity of his claims and you dismiss Samadi without verifying their veracity either.

At one time we used to have news and editorial sections. Now all news is editorialized.

Denzel Washington said it best, if you don’t read the news, you are ill informed, if you read, you are misinformed.


Last edited by Cogito on July 7th, 2020, 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 1:24 pm 
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Joined: June 4th, 2013, 2:39 pm
Posts: 487
Cogito wrote:
David and Grover,

You guys are going after the messenger instead of the message. Samadi is quoting the information that is present on the CDC website. I dont see either of you addressing that.


I'm happy to address it. It means that current antibody testing is unreliable, so it's far from certain that the presence of antibodies confers immunity, or even means that you had Covid-19. The CDC also says on the same page:

"If you test positive or negative for COVID-19 on a viral or an antibody test, you still should take preventive measures to protect yourself and others.

We do not know yet if people who recover from COVID-19 can get infected again. Scientists are working to understand this."

So what's your point?


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 1:59 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:19 pm
Posts: 914
Cogito wrote:
OK, you don’t believe Samadi, so you discount what he quoted from CDC website without verifying it yourself.

What about Atlantic Magazine article? They are also referring to the exact info from CDC.

Looks to me, you believe Sanjay Gupta without verifying the veracity of his claims.


I did not say I believe Sanjay Gupta, I just was pointing out that he performs a similar role as a explaining medical issues to a lay public. Frankly I don't even know what he has said on the subject. He is a neuro-surgeon, so kind of in the same boat as Dr. Samadi as being a specialist but publicly commenting on medical issues outside his field of direct expertise.

I want an real expert to publicly explain what the data actually means, and what we should do about it, without bias or agenda. I am not going to be an amateur epidemiologist trying to interpret posted data to support a position whether it is safe to come out and play (or work or live). I also don't want to be misled, being told it is safe when it is not. Mind you, I have the freedom to not leave my house except when necessary, I can work 100% from home. There are those who have lost jobs and others who cannot work from home, and therefore is a daily struggle, and they must take informed risks and protect themselves.

David


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 2:49 pm 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 10:38 am
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David McGown wrote:
I want an real expert to publicly explain what the data actually means, and what we should do about it, without bias or agenda.


Unfortunately, in today's environment, you're more likely to win the lottery. Without buying a ticket... :angry-banghead:

_________________
I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19
PostPosted: July 7th, 2020, 7:55 pm 
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Joined: July 17th, 2016, 6:24 am
Posts: 1099
Grover Gardner wrote:
"If you test positive or negative for COVID-19 on a viral or an antibody test, you still should take preventive measures to protect yourself and others.

We do not know yet if people who recover from COVID-19 can get infected again. Scientists are working to understand this."


Nobody with IQ more than their shoe size disagrees with that statement.

We are discussing totally different issue here. Both Atlantic and Samadi claim CDC is encouraging putting all corona virus numbers into a single basket. Is their claim true, and if so why is CDC doing it?

Corona is a family of viruses. COVID-19 is a new strain of Corona Virus.

CDC Explains:
Quote:
COVID-19 is a new strain of coronavirus that has not been previously identified in humans. The COVID-19 is the cause of an outbreak of respiratory illness first detected in Wuhan, Hubei province, China.

Since December 2019, cases have been identified in a growing number of countries. The District’s surveillance data can be found here.

Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that are known to cause illness ranging from the common cold to more severe diseases such as Severe Acute Respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS).


As individuals, we are only concerned about COVID-19 virus, not the entire family of Corona Viruses.

If the tests detect only COVID-19, there is no problem. OTOH, if the tests detect entire family of Corona Viruses, we may have false numbers.

The two sources seem to be claiming that these general Coronavirus test numbers are lumped together with COVID-19 numbers go give artificially high numbers for COVID-19. Can I prove either way? Not at this time, I have spend enough time on the subject.

Last week, a source (dont recall which one) claimed that about 20% of the population in the source is already infected. I believe that report to be true to all of the world as far as coronavirus infections are concerned.

During the peak of infections in the north, in a study conducted in NY state of 250,000 people, they found 14% of the people were infected with coronavirus, mostly asymptomatic. (see link below). I did not see any discussion about that important study in the media.

The real question is, are the numbers reported correct? Is CDC deliberately trying to blurr the lines between COVID-19 and Coronavius test results?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/23/coronavirus-new-york-millions-residents-may-have-been-infected-antibody-test/3012920001/

I will try to lookup and post my findings in a day or two.


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