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PostPosted: September 18th, 2018, 7:30 pm 
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Cogito wrote:
Tom,

I was specifically talking about the "horn loaded applications", other than that we basically agree on all the points you raise.

In horn loaded applications, cone area is not a critical factor of SPL as the output from the cone can be compressed to generate higher pressures to match that of larger cones and larger excursions.

Again, not quite correct. To get the volume and pressure you need for a given output at the mouth of the horn, if you decrease the cone area you have to increase the excursion. so cone area is important. It is just like in a transformer where the power transferred is the product of the voltage times the current, not just one of the values.

In regards to the excursions, larger excursions require firmer cones and larger mass. Laws of physics play a negative role on the sound quality of heavier mass, large excursions and larger diameter cones. As the mass increases, momentum increases which reduces the response of voice coil to the changes in electrical energy. It takes longer time to accelerate and decelerate. That is why large excursion and large mass sub woofers HT subwoofers are not deemed suitable music reproduction.

Larger cones do not necessarily require firmer cones and larger mass. You can have a large light cone but to achieve a low Fs you have to have a very compliant suspension. The VAS will then be higher requiring a larger volume. Also, heavier larger cones do not cause substandard performance. The ability of the driver to react to electrical signals can partially be inferred from the TS parameters, Qes, Qms, and Qts. Momentum can be offset by losses in the suspension and the ability of the motor strength to apply braking forces. Remember that the driver acts as both a motor and generator. The ability of the driver to respond to electrical signals is reflected in the frequency response of the driver. Having a moving mass that is higher just tends to reduce the efficiency of the driver although a stronger motor helps offset that.


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PostPosted: September 18th, 2018, 9:10 pm 
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Large Xmax is immaterial in mid-bass/low-mid range applications.

I am crossing over at 70Hz and 700Hz. The max Xmax for 15” drivers is 1mm at 70Hz and 0.01mm at 700Hz for 100dB output.


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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 11:00 am 
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Walt,

My point is, there are several voicing features in Guitar Amps like reverbs, tone stacks, echos, equalizers etc. but none for Guitar woofers.


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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 11:18 am 
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You're wrong, but if you already knew that you "knew" the answer to your satisfaction, why did you ask the question?


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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 12:34 pm 
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Stuart Polansky wrote:
You're wrong, but if you already knew that you "knew" the answer to your satisfaction, why did you ask the question?


If you are suggesting Guitar woofers are voiced, can you explain where I can find such information? Not saying they are not voiced, but if they are, its a big selling point for the manufacturers. OTOH, every guitar amp claims to have several voicing features in the amp section, no such claims for the woofer.

Every reputable audio manufacturers voices their drivers. I wont be surprised if Guitar Amp manufacturers do that too. We are talking about third party Guitar amp drivers.

Like most of the audiophiles, I always looked down upon the guitar woofers without any first hand experience of them. When I started this thread, I was curious why the mid-bass horns I have came with guitar woofer, Eminence Kappa 15c. Evidently, number of people in Klipsch forum replaced the woofer in Cornwall with Kappa 15c.

Was trying to understand why Guitar woofer when there are a million options available in the home-audio market? After using them for a couple of days, I can see their advantages even though it is not integrated properly in my system. They only technical difference I see in Kappa 15c is unlike most of the current generation home-audio 15" woofers, it is highly compliant with small excursion and high Bl.


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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 12:47 pm 
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Fair enough on your asking. As Jim G. pointed out, there are good sounding guitar speakers. His Ureis sure did sound good.

As to voicing of guitar drivers, probably best to ask someone like Eminence or Celestion. Musicians are every bit as fussy, probably more so than are we, in selecting gear with their sound. Not sure that most musicians would have the technical knowledge to choose a driver via T-S specs, but a look at a catalog listing of guitar speakers sure provides insight as to the manufacturer's sonic goals.

For audiophiles, the best test is still the ear. If it pleases you, who cares what the intended application was?

Until I heard the Ureis at Jim's house, I found guitar speakers with music playing through them to be hard sounding, not at all enjoyable.

Obviously Jim proved that universal idea wrong.

Please, experiment, let us know the results. You may find true gems.

Best of luck!


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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 1:22 pm 
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Just look at the descriptions here: http://www.eminence.com/guitar-bass/ Pretty obvious that guitar speaker manufacturers are trying to sell speakers based on different voicings...

Roscoe

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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 6:41 pm 
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Cogito wrote:
Walt,

My point is, there are several voicing features in Guitar Amps like reverbs, tone stacks, echos, equalizers etc. but none for Guitar woofers.



As I said -- you are looking for information about something that is not done. The guitar speakers simply have to produce a certain amount of output with the amplifier they're matched up with with decent power handling. The speakers are marketed direct to the guitar amp. manufacturers. The music production is a function of the driver in the box and the guitar amps. design.

For the most part the devil is in the details of the guitar itself. Strings, pick-up, body, fret spacing, bridge, and even the picks used. That's the domain of the musician. The guitar amps. are just a means to an end.

The horse is dead.

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PostPosted: September 19th, 2018, 9:01 pm 
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SoundMods wrote:
As I said -- you are looking for information about something that is not done. The guitar speakers simply have to produce a certain amount of output with the amplifier they're matched up with with decent power handling. The speakers are marketed direct to the guitar amp. manufacturers. The music production is a function of the driver in the box and the guitar amps. design.

For the most part the devil is in the details of the guitar itself. Strings, pick-up, body, fret spacing, bridge, and even the picks used. That's the domain of the musician. The guitar amps. are just a means to an end.

The horse is dead.


Ah, no, not exactly. Eminence sells thousands (probably 10s of thousands) of guitar speakers to players every year who are simply looking to change the sound of their amps. That's part of why they sell 31 different guitar speakers in the 12" size alone (and that doesn't count versions of the same model in different impedances, or custom speakers they sell directly to manufacturers that you and I can't buy). There's a HUGE market out there for guitar speakers that players are buying to "voice" their amps, Eminence is just one of many vendors in this market.

Roscoe

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PostPosted: September 20th, 2018, 9:37 am 
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Roscoe Primrose wrote:
SoundMods wrote:
As I said -- you are looking for information about something that is not done. The guitar speakers simply have to produce a certain amount of output with the amplifier they're matched up with with decent power handling. The speakers are marketed direct to the guitar amp. manufacturers. The music production is a function of the driver in the box and the guitar amps. design.

For the most part the devil is in the details of the guitar itself. Strings, pick-up, body, fret spacing, bridge, and even the picks used. That's the domain of the musician. The guitar amps. are just a means to an end.

The horse is dead.


Ah, no, not exactly. Eminence sells thousands (probably 10s of thousands) of guitar speakers to players every year who are simply looking to change the sound of their amps. That's part of why they sell 31 different guitar speakers in the 12" size alone (and that doesn't count versions of the same model in different impedances, or custom speakers they sell directly to manufacturers that you and I can't buy). There's a HUGE market out there for guitar speakers that players are buying to "voice" their amps, Eminence is just one of many vendors in this market.

Roscoe



Hey Roscoe! I was not talking about the after market. But yes -- there are those musicians that know how to use a screwdriver that will undertake tweaking. Or that they simply blew out the voice coil playing some real nasty rips.

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