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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 6th, 2017, 7:23 pm 
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Ed Meitner is a reasonable, levelheaded guy.

I have a lot of experience with DSD files but I think they are better because most I have heard are dubs from analog on really good systems. Great archival medium...while there are players for it!

I can share some of the DSD dubs I have, show material from our Munich demos.

Gotta watch out for ES9018 DACs though, recently a popular choice for DSD playback. That thing can sound very processed unless major measures are taken to use external filter sets and run NOS for Bluebook. ESS does not make the engineering info necessary to do your own thing with the 9018 very easy to get. 90%+ of the players out there use the eval board circuit which is not the best that can be done with that chip.


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 6th, 2017, 9:24 pm 
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DaveR wrote:
Ah, the old dead horse arisen from the grave...


Well, I tried several music players for the computers including foobar2000 and found MPD to be the best.

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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 12:10 pm 
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I need help in clarifying the PCM vs DSD discussion. I have never done anything with DAD so I started doing some research and came across several papers by Lipshitz, Vanderkooy, and Stewart that all say that 1 bit sigma delta is not as good as PCM. There was also a research paper done by the Erich-Thienhaus Institute in Germany that said that the two were virtually indistinguishable. BTW I have the Lipshitz and Vanderkooy AES papers if anyone wants to see them. So I am confused. If the two are at best indistinguishable, why go to DSD?

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 12:16 pm 
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tomp wrote:
I need help in clarifying the PCM vs DSD discussion. I have never done anything with DAD so I started doing some research and came across several papers by Lipshitz, Vanderkooy, and Stewart that all say that 1 bit sigma delta is not as good as PCM. There was also a research paper done by the Erich-Thienhaus Institute in Germany that said that the two were virtually indistinguishable. BTW I have the Lipshitz and Vanderkooy AES papers if anyone wants to see them. So I am confused. If the two are at best indistinguishable, why go to DSD?

Tom


Tom,
We need to be careful with “research” papers. How many research papers are there which state red book CD is all you need, or you cannot ‘hear’ musical content above 20kHz.

To my ears, the smoothness of DSD is closer to analog.

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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 1:07 pm 
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Are we reading math papers or listening to music around here? :lol:

There are so many ways to screw up digital that the choice of encoding scheme can easily be swamped by downstream concerns. Implementation is key. Can't listen to a theoretical model.

I sorta like my Wolfson based Wavelength Audio Brick on bluebook more than my $300 China special ES9018 eval board circuit with DSD. Part of it may be that that a choke loaded 12AU7 might sound better than an OPA627 or AD797 to interface to the outside world.

Call me an analog throwback, but I never heard any DAC match the flow of good vinyl or tape, although digital can provide an acceptable home entertainment medium.

I often wonder if the bottleneck isn't on the A to D side. The market and R&D seemed skewed toward playback devices.

People are listening to $50000 DAC using files made on $500 ADC machines.

Maybe DSD/SACD demands a higher investment and sophistication in AD technology and that accounts for some of the professed differences.


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 1:20 pm 
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I'm thinking of getting a DAC that will handle DSD and listening for myself. BTW, I spent a lot of time speaking with an engineer at Analog Devices and he stated that the A to D process is more difficult to do properly than the D to A conversion. That's his opinion but he had a lot of practical background on the subject. In my own experience with pieces like the Behringer DEQ2496, the A to D section is much worse than the D to A and it sounds much better with SPDIF input.


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 1:35 pm 
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The only way to really know is to have master recordings that were done with both a DSD and PCM recorder optimized for each and then DAC's that are known good for each format.

I have tried both here and DSD downsampled to PCM sounds as good as HiRez PCM.

Recording and mastering makes more difference than the format in most cases and that was with acoustical instruments recorded simply.

Since you cannot signal process DSD at home, HiRez PCM is the only alternative when doing digital crossovers.

YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 1:53 pm 
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Tom, You can borrow my Chinese 9018 DAC with Amanero input if you want to play. It is small enough that I could mail it to you.

The A to D deficit is certainly real. Always was that way. I've been tying to convince my bud at Silbatone, Dr. Bae, to get with his genius PhD think tank associates and figure out the A to D question so we can make better DSD dubs of old LPs!


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 3:00 pm 
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J-ROB wrote:
Tom, You can borrow my Chinese 9018 DAC with Amanero input if you want to play. It is small enough that I could mail it to you.

The A to D deficit is certainly real. Always was that way. I've been tying to convince my bud at Silbatone, Dr. Bae, to get with his genius PhD think tank associates and figure out the A to D question so we can make better DSD dubs of old LPs!



If you are sucessful in getting him to do the better A to D solution please let me know. BTW, the A to D in the DEQX Express II is pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: PCM vs DSD
PostPosted: December 9th, 2017, 3:17 pm 
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Look at an AKM AK5397 A/D. Probably the best I have ever heard.


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