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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2016, 2:26 pm 
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Location: Parkville, Maryland
Thanks!

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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2016, 4:22 pm 
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Thank you all for the responses. It certainly gives me more to think about. I do not want to set myself up for tool problems in the space, so I may have to consider heating the area. Air conditioning wise, given our location will not be necessary. Our tree cover is pretty dense. Google maps barely shows the roof of our house, so I am planning on just using a combination of my trust barn fan, the windows, and my dehumidifier.

Heating is really my concern. Because it is a concrete slab, and cement board walls, and no windows on the side that the sun shines, it gets pretty cold. We do have propane service at the house, so that is definitely something to consider. It would not be all that difficult to plumb a new line to that area. Hooking a thermostat up to heaters is not an issue at all.

Definitely something I am going to have to look into more. There is attic space above, and I definitely want to insulate that area more than it is now. Really appreciate the ideas guys. Very very helpful


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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2016, 5:12 pm 
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Sounds like a plan. Definitely, you'd want to use a propane or oil fueled heater.

As a comparison to what I mentioned earlier, a 5kW (17kBTU) electric space heater consumes around 5kW, the actual value is determined by your line voltage. If the heater is rated at 230V, and you actually have 230v, then 5kW it is. Some houses has as much as 245 volts, some, as low as 205 or so (if you happen to be connected to a 3 phase network, pretty unlikely. BGE still uses lots of 117/234 transformers. more voltage, more heat and power consumed. Reverse for lower voltages.

On the other hand, a mini-split, with 17kBTU of cooling and 19kBTU of heating uses 9.08 amps at 230 volts. Accounting for power factor, actual consumption is 2.09kW. This from a unit with a SEER number around 10.

The choice is yours: 17kBTU of heat from a unit heater for 5kW of electricity, or 19kBTU of heat for ~2.1kW of electricity.

Efficiency can be a misused word also. Unit heaters are efficient at converting electricity to heat. They are not efficient at heating a room, coupling the heat to a room uniformly. Electricity is not an efficient power to use for heat. There may be many variables and losses of efficiency, especially in a ducted system, one where a furnace and condensing unit are upgraded and the rest of the system left in place, as in a finished home, but heat pump use (an electrical system to transfer heat, as opposed to creating it) is much more effective at heating a space at a lower cost, until the temperature drops very low. It's all a moving target with lots of variables.

Still, the propane unit would be better if the flame is not in the workshop.


BTW, unit heaters do a pretty awful job of making a space comfortable. In warehouses, etc., they use them because they are cheap to install. Fans go bad, especially when they are circulating sawdust. For a space you need to live, work and function in, perimeter baseboard heaters are the way to go, electric or water. The upsides of a unit heater is that they can change room temperature fairly quickly, compared to baseboard units, they are about as cheap as you can get, and they are easy to install.

I've been directly involved in the design, installation, repair, removal and replacement of countless such units in over 40 years. I heat my garage with propane, and I can get a unit heater free. I like to be comfortable.

Ideally, use a propane (or oil!) fired water heater in another space, Teco/B&G circulating pump and water baseboard units; thermostat turns the pump on/off. Beats a fan forced heater any day, keeps the whole space warm and doesn't have an open flame in a room where combustible dust, flammable liquids and explosive gasses may be present during production.

I've gotten away with a propane heater in the garage, but can't help the feeling that things are going to explode any minute.


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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2016, 7:31 pm 
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Here is another two cents worth and then I will bow out of this thread.

Stu said: "BTW, unit heaters do a pretty awful job of making a space comfortable. In warehouses, etc., they use them because they are cheap to install. Fans go bad, especially when they are circulating sawdust. For a space you need to live, work and function in, perimeter baseboard heaters are the way to go, electric or water. The upsides of a unit heater is that they can change room temperature fairly quickly, compared to baseboard units, they are about as cheap as you can get, and they are easy to install."

What Stu failed to mention was that the typical warehouse has a ceiling height from the slab to the pan roof of anywhere from 27 feet to 40 feet. Also, warehouse design is to temper the environment with creature comfort taking a back seat. Because the unit heaters duty cycle, during the off-cycle the warmed air will stratify to the ceiling. More recent construction ( and tenant improvements for new renters) has made use of paddle-wheel fans to reclaim the heat that rises up to push it back down to the grade level. Some warehouses use so-called warehouse heat-and-vent units that circulate the heated supply air vertically like a fountain and the heated supply air curls around and down back to the return-air grilles. Again creature comfort is not the goal.

For occupied areas like wood shops, where they are only heated, they typically have fin-tube duct heaters with aggressive return-air filters. In your case with the low ceiling, you shouldn't have an issue with comfort and can also run the unit with a two-stage thermostat that can help "sip" energy. The 1st stage just demands the fan to reclaim stratified heat. If that isn't enough -- then the 2nd stage brings on the electric element. The Grainger catalog may have a nice workshop heater with filters.

Electric baseboard is another way to go, but as Stu pointed, it takes a while to get the room up even if you use a setback scheme when not there. I have no clue why Stu is preoccupied with heat pumps. When you get past the balance point you're not going to get the work done without auxiliary electric heat. And besides, in a work environment like a wood shop, even with a vacuum attachment on the table saw and sander, sawdust gets out and the heat pump evaporator coil, that serves as the condensing coil when heating, can be easily clogged forcing regular cleaning with a fin brush and compressed air. Evaporator coils have very tight fin spacing -- unit heaters have wider spaced fins on the heat elements that are not easily clogged. The filters on basic heat pump units are not that efficient and basically designed to deal with ordinary occupied environments like an office or residence.

And here is due warning -- saw dust is flammable. A gas-fired anything, either with standing pilot or electric ignition, can be a fire hazard looking for a place to happen. Then there is carbon monoxide to deal with if the heat exchanger cracks and leaks flue gas into the occupied area. I am not a fan of fossil fueled anything. Besides, LP gas is not cheap and more expensive than natural gas.

If you are going to use solvent-based coatings you will need to ventilate the space winter or summer. It wouldn't hurt to bone up on the National Electric Code for Hazardous locations to understand the rules. You'll be dealing with friable saw dust and maybe even solvent vapors within that closed space. It is not overkill. Your insurance underwriter can walk away from a damage claim if the garage does not meet code for the utilization change you are planning.

If you want -- you can create a thermos bottle out of the garage. Fiberglas bats between the framing then finish with EIFS. Or finish with inch-thick styrofoam covered with sheet rock. Lay nice thick 24-inch bats in the attic cavity.

Just insulate the hell out of the garage and simply heat it. Add an exhaust fan -- you won't regret it.

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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2016, 10:47 am 
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Location: Potomac, MD
Hey, this is a DIY audio group. Forget the Kenwood and build a BIG tube amp with a many tubes as you can fit into the space. Then you have heat and nice tunes as well.


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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2016, 11:03 am 
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Now that is a PLAN!! Music and space heating! Let's see -- would an amp. with a brace of 12 845s get the job done? WOO-HOO!!! :crazy:

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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2016, 11:29 am 
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Use 833s. Less wiring for the same amount of heating ;)

Roscoe

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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2016, 1:20 pm 
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Now that is a real HE-MAN tube!! :o

Here is a photo.


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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2016, 2:05 pm 
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I cannot lie guys, I am reaching information overload. I do appreciate the insight, and its great you guys know so much about this stuff, as it will save me money long term, as well as a possible explosion, so that is a good thing.

I have to admit, the goal to heat the garage is more for reasonable temperature, not so much comfort heat, so I am not sure if that changes something. I am from extreme upstate NY, aka the Arctic Tundra, so I do not expect it to be "warm" in the garage in the winter. I do however, want to keep moisture in check, so I will need to look into that some more. I use desiccant in my toolboxes, and am in the midst of cleaning up all of my tools, which will have proper protectant on all cast surfaces etc, but will still need to keep that in check.

Going to go back to the drawing board and figure out exactly what I am wanting to achieve here. I had already planned to heavily insulate the ceiling and walls, already did the door, and was planning on a good sized exhaust fan for dust, but also to get out heat in case of a crazy hot day. Its the colder months that I need to come up with a solution for, but money is not, no object, so I need to mindful of costs on things.

Back home alot of people are using solar power to heat water. They paint tubing black in a labyrinth like setup on the roof, pump water through the tubing, and then use it for heat. I could also do an outdoor woodstove, which are also common back home. Tons of options that I just need to sift through, and I appreciate immensely all of the insight.


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PostPosted: March 4th, 2016, 1:34 pm 
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Seems like you guys touched on everything except for solar and wind. I believe David Berning may still have solar panels on his roof. Has anyone else venture down that path or does anyone live way out in the boondocks where wind turbines might be feasible?


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