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 Post subject: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 7:24 am 
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Joined: July 3rd, 2014, 7:47 am
Posts: 89
Didn't think it made any sense to keep adding to my introduction lol, so thought I would start a new thread. As I imagine the questions I will ask would be similar to anyone starting off in this arena would have, it might be nice to have a thread for it.

How has everyone come up with budgets for your components?

No- I am not asking how much money each person can afford to spend. What I am trying to determine is if it is more common for people to:

A: Find a speaker you like in a box store - Speaker A - try to duplicate that as close as possible in diy form - gaining the knowledge you made your own and save a bit of money. (not time)

B. Determine that Speaker A would have cost say 1000.00 - so build a diy speaker that costs 1000.00.

The reason I bring this up, as in numerous forums I keep seeing - "this speaker costs less than 500.00 to make- and rivals speakers 10 times its cost, as well as other similar posts. These are not comments by guys who make a set of speakers every once in a while - but designers in the diy community who consistently do well in showcases etc. It's similar to most reviews of the Maggies- "at 599.00 this speaker is by far one of the best speakers than can be bought for less than 2500.00" I can appreciate the ability to buy or build speakers, which have capabilities far exceeding their cost. No doubt many choose to go down that path for those very reasons.

My concern is, as I find myself starting to go down that path - it becomes very easy to justify that next little upgrade. Ie cap and resistor upgrades that cost nearly as much as the speaker.

Is it the wrong way to go if I say - I would like to spend less than 500.00 on speakers, and not want 1500.00 speakers when I am done?

I went into a B&M shop yesterday on my lunch break - and auditioned some speakers. After looking at so many DIY designs, specs, graphs etc, I wanted to re-realize why I was going down this path. After listening to probably 5 different sets of speakers - I found myself really liking a pair I had never heard before. I always seem drawn to the B&W's. Not the 800's or anything- but the 600 bookshelf's always sound really nice to me. Sure they lacked a bit of bass- but I never really expect much bass from a bookshelf.

Then the guy at the store hooked up the Totems. The Totem Hawks were just amazing. The guy kept suggesting jazz or classical. He didn't have any Alice in Chains unplugged but did end up having Pink Floyd. He cued up Comfortably Numb and I was just blown away. The way the speakers were able to play that bass without any semblance of a boom - you could heard the fingers run across the fret, it truly sounded like I was there. Granted- this was a DVD Audio track, driven by a 20,000.00 McIntosh Amplifier- but still I was amazed.

I definitely cannot afford Totems. Honestly given their size - I was a bit surprised at the price. Now that I have gotten a reminder on what I been doing all the research for, I find myself re-invigorated to build a speaker that can closely resemble the qualities of that Totem Hawk Tower- Slim tower, 2 way or 2.5 if needed, Simple cabinets - nothing extravagant or flamboyant. They had really nice wide dispersion, are 6-8 ohm speakers. The only change I would like to make if possible, would be to go a bit higher with sensitivity. I am not going to be able to drive them with a high current Mcintosh, so if I can figure a way to build a speaker that has higher sensitivity that would great for my power constraints.

Of course being my first build - I would like to find a known design - something tried and true that would get to my goal. I am going through all the sites I have looked at and really looking over each design and review. I think there are speakers I was initially looking at that will not be on the list anymore, as they simply weren't intended for what I am looking for.


Does this seem like a good approach to all of this?


Open to any input, suggestions, scoldings etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 7:49 am 
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Joined: March 12th, 2013, 12:45 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Annapolis, MD
Quote:
My concern is, as I find myself starting to go down that path - it becomes very easy to justify that next little upgrade. Ie cap and resistor upgrades that cost nearly as much as the speaker.


Hi Jeff:

It really depends on the type of 'Audiophile' (or, better, 'Equipophile') you grow up to be -- are you going to become a scientific audiophile, or a "magical Audiophile"? The scientific audiophile will measure and listen, and will refrain from using the $$$$$ Teflon cap when a non-polar electrolytic will serve, the magical audiophile will invest "thousands" in the interconnects and speaker wire, as they can hear the difference, and will most definitely use the "Teflon's" whenever and wherever possible .

DIY 'Audiophiles' span the same spectrum.

That stated, you certainly can make loudspeakers that compete with commercial designs, at a fraction of the cost.

Regards,

Charles

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"We are all inventors, each sailing out on a voyage of discovery, guided each by a private chart, of which there is no duplicate. The world is all gates, all opportunities."
Ralph Waldo Emerson


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 8:30 am 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 1:06 pm
Posts: 54
Here is my advice, there are several members of this group who have spent over 25 years building and tweaking their systems. I suggest you try to listen to as many of them as you can so you can hear for yourself what is important to you. That's what I did several years ago and it really saved me a lot of time and money because I knew what direction I wanted to go after hearing several very different but very good sounding systems.

Also you can save your money while you wait and research. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 8:31 am 
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Joined: March 12th, 2013, 12:45 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Annapolis, MD
Be sure to check out Troels Gravesen's site

Here are my Pluto's -- just say that it is possible to build something even the wife would enjoy.

Image

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"We are all inventors, each sailing out on a voyage of discovery, guided each by a private chart, of which there is no duplicate. The world is all gates, all opportunities."
Ralph Waldo Emerson


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 8:56 am 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 3:31 pm
Posts: 1780
rock4016 wrote:
Here is my advice, there are several members of this group who have spent over 25 years building and tweaking their systems. I suggest you try to listen to as many of them as you can so you can hear for yourself what is important to you. That's what I did several years ago and it really saved me a lot of time and money because I knew what direction I wanted to go after hearing several very different but very good sounding systems.

Also you can save your money while you wait and research. :mrgreen:


I second this motion. There are a lot of good systems within the group that are different but meet the primary wishes of each individual. It is virtually impossible to achieve everything in a home system especially given typical room acoustics. Knowing what is most important to you is key. I'm including one of the slides I will be using at the presentation on Friday that discusses this. The key is that whatever you chose, it has to be right for you even if someone else has very diffderent tastes.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 9:17 am 
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Joined: July 3rd, 2014, 7:47 am
Posts: 89
cport wrote:
Be sure to check out Troels Gravesen's site

Here are my Pluto's -- just say that it is possible to build something even the wife would enjoy.

Image


They look like they would belong in a loudspeaker museum! Amazing craftsmanship. Very jealous. Would love to hear those sometime. How far do you have to keep them from walls?


Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 9:30 am 
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Joined: February 28th, 2013, 10:38 am
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:character-oldtimer:
I like to use an analogy when talking about audio gear... Think of a piece of gear like a woman. A good design is a beautiful woman, a bad design is an ugly woman. Boutique parts, think of that as makeup. Put a lot of makeup on an ugly woman, and she may look a little better, but she's still an ugly woman. A beautiful woman is beautiful even without makeup, but a beautiful woman can sometimes look even better with the proper application of the right makeup..

Roscoe

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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 10:14 am 
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Joined: March 12th, 2013, 1:49 pm
Posts: 214
Roscoe Primrose wrote:
:character-oldtimer:
I like to use an analogy when talking about audio gear... Think of a piece of gear like a woman. A good design is a beautiful woman, a bad design is an ugly woman. Boutique parts, think of that as makeup. Put a lot of makeup on an ugly woman, and she may look a little better, but she's still an ugly woman. A beautiful woman is beautiful even without makeup, but a beautiful woman can sometimes look even better with the proper application of the right makeup..

Roscoe

Roscoe, that analogy is pretty much on point! My own "evolution" of audio came about by accident, while I had listen to a lot of gear going thru my system, mostly tube amps, and compared my system to what I was hearing at several audio stores, I was not impressed with with what I was hearing at the stores vis-a-vis my own slap-dash system. It wasn't until by accident that I heard a system at the house of someone off craigslist that I really got an "epiphany" and heard what a good sounding system has to offer, too often what you hear at a store is poorly set-up, pushed components that the store has to sell, etc. Hearing Chris's system was a real ear-opener, and made aural sense to many of those buzzwords that you hear about gear. FFW to now, and having heard other systems of our club members and the evolution of gear, as well as component shootouts at Roscoe's I have a better sense of what works and how a good choice of gear brings out the details in music, as well as the wealth of experience that the other members have to offer...


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 11:17 am 
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Joined: December 14th, 2013, 2:19 pm
Posts: 948
Quote:
It really depends on the type of 'Audiophile' (or, better, 'Equipophile') you grow up to be -- are you going to become a scientific audiophile, or a "magical Audiophile"? The scientific audiophile will measure and listen, and will refrain from using the $$$$$ Teflon cap when a non-polar electrolytic will serve, the magical audiophile will invest "thousands" in the interconnects and speaker wire, as they can hear the difference, and will most definitely use the "Teflon's" whenever and wherever possible .


Jeff,

This hobby is a journey without end. Along the way, you'll find helpful guidance, useless blather and, occasionally, downright condescension. Let your own ears be your guide. Measurements really are secondary, because they are incomplete. Imagine judging a car by its power, steering response, brakes, etc., and ignoring the fact that it is uncomfortable to sit in for more than a few minutes.

Try not to approach any one project as though this will be your last attempt to get a component "right". Enjoy the ride, learn and do better the next time. But BUILD! Learn from each build. As for advice from the club, by all means listen to as many systems as you can. You'll get a feel for which rigs appeal to you the most. There are hundreds of man-years of experience available to you in the club. Avail yourself of them.

Just because you choose a direction (say single ended tube amps driving horns, or massive power transistor amps driving mini-monitors and remote subs), remember you can easily change direction should another piece of the pie reveal itself to you. It's a lifelong FUN endeavor.

It's useful to have someone whose opinion you trust, whose ears can stand in stead for your own, telling you that he's been there, don't go that way. Meet the guys in the club and see if that works for you. That can move you forward very fast and save thousands in the long run, as Joel pointed out.

From my own experience, EVERYTHING, and I do mean EVERYTHING, has a "sound", a sonic signature. Wire, resistors, caps, transformers, power cords, interconnects, the material you build your chassis' out of, etc. EVERYTHING! BUT>>>>>Parts quality is NOT a substitute for good engineering!<<<<< The best NOS Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7, in a Teflon socket, with a 100k Mills plate load driving a passive RIAA filter filled with Kwami resistors and Duelund caps, will never sound as good as any old 6C45PI in a tin plated phenolic socket properly operated in a linear fashion and using run-of-the-mill generic components. On the other hand, if your system is of high enough resolution, you can easily hear the differences between various components.

We can't prove it to you, only you can by hearing the results for yourself. Then decide how to spend your money. The overall rig you put together will be fraught with imperfections. The trick is to make them work with each other to give you a pleasing end result.

Most of us in the group disagree to some degree about what sounds best. You aren't any different, choose your own course and ignore people who tell you "If I can't measure it, you can't hear it". If you hear the difference, repeatedly, then it's real. Figure it out and use the knowledge.

One more point regarding the sonic signature of components. I have no idea what the exact mechanism is by which power cords affect sound (especially in a system filled with voltage regulators, chokes, various noise filters, etc. and a circuit with a very high PSRR) but most of us have heard the effects clearly. Judging by the variety of power cord designs, I'd say the physics of whatever is going on isn't very clear to a lot of folks. However, just because I can't, does 't mean that there isn't a difference.

Stuart


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 Post subject: Re: Advice
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2014, 6:20 pm 
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Joined: June 22nd, 2013, 11:00 am
Posts: 1036
Roscoe Primrose wrote:
:character-oldtimer:
I like to use an analogy when talking about audio gear... Think of a piece of gear like a woman. A good design is a beautiful woman, a bad design is an ugly woman. Boutique parts, think of that as makeup. Put a lot of makeup on an ugly woman, and she may look a little better, but she's still an ugly woman. A beautiful woman is beautiful even without makeup, but a beautiful woman can sometimes look even better with the proper application of the right makeup..

Roscoe


Am I wrong for liking the plain looking chick with the big knockers?

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I reject your music, and substitute my own.


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