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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 11:18 am 
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If the Deox is so good why is david dropping it and redesigning with a passive xover


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 11:24 am 
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Pelliott321 wrote:
If the Deox is so good why is david dropping it and redesigning with a passive xover

Hmmmm. Inquiring minds wish to know. :think:

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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 12:28 pm 
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First off, nobody should base their impressions of what a DEQX sounds like by what they heard at Tom's house in Potomac, or potentially what they heard at Dave's.

Greg Timbers, the former chief engineer and designer at JBL for several decades who is responsible for many of their best speakers including the Everest, Synthesis Series, M2, and 4367 uses a DEQX and 3 outboard Meridian dacs to run his personal Everest system (that he designed the passive network for) at home because he feels it sounds superior. The DEQX is a tool. Like a table saw in the hands of an experienced craftsperson, beautiful furniture can be made, but in the hands of a dope like me, I'd be lucky not to cut my fingers off making the first (probably out of square) cut.

I appreciate Dave mostly used the DEQX to quickly establish parameters to then model the passive crossovers from. As well as suggesting Dave ask Dhar to look at his passive design, I also suggested he consider using the DEQX tuning service based on my recent experience at Tom's new house. Perhaps a professional tweaking will make an improvement. Charlie and I did prefer the DEQX to the original passive possibly because it had more coherence from better time alignment, I Don't know.

But if you can rationalize someone with expert experience possibly improving a passive crossover, why can't you rationalize an expert possibly improving an active crossover? We collectively don't have all the answers. Tom fiddled around with that crossover for months and never got those speakers sounding good. In his new room, a guy at his desk in the midwest somewhere had those speakers singing beautifully in 3 hours, and never even heard them. Don't condemn the DEQX because you heard it once in a bad room, or not setup by someone with enough knowledge to know how to take complete advantage of it.


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 1:35 pm 
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Jim,

You are conflating two technologies here, digital crossover and convolution engine.

Dave was using DEQX as a digital crossover and if I am correct, you helped Tom setup the convolution engine for room correction.

Room correction obviously makes music more enjoyable.

But the point we are discussing is the noise and/or jitter levels I perceived at Daves place. That cannot be eliminated with or without room correction.

Found this DEQX promotional video on YouTube. It talks about timing correction.
https://youtu.be/peQq6BX6jio

One of the things I have planned for this weekend is generating the Impulse Response of my room and feeding it to HQPlayer's convolution engine.


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 3:28 pm 
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Cogito wrote:
Jim,

You are conflating two technologies here, digital crossover and convolution engine.

Dave was using DEQX as a digital crossover and if I am correct, you helped Tom setup the convolution engine for room correction.

Room correction obviously makes music more enjoyable.

But the point we are discussing is the noise and/or jitter levels I perceived at Daves place. That cannot be eliminated with or without room correction.

Found this DEQX promotional video on YouTube. It talks about timing correction.
https://youtu.be/peQq6BX6jio

One of the things I have planned for this weekend is generating the Impulse Response of my room and feeding it to HQPlayer's convolution engine.

\

Not quite correct. The work done by the DEQX technician was a very complete adjustment of the system including physical placement of the speakers in the room, timing issues, crossover points and slopes, level setting, and EQ. Jim and I were essentially spectators and moved the speakers and microphone around during the process. It took 4 1/2 hours. As Jim said, this is a complicated process. The installation manual for the DEQX is 143 pages long. Even if I knew "every button to push", it is not a substitute for the experience that the technician has amassed doing this on a regular basis on countless systems. The microphone does not have HRTF and the computer does not have psychoacoustic capabilities. I decided to pay the $400 to get it done right. Yes, I have done lots of little adjustments using the DEQX but for the major setup, the experience of their people can't be beat.

It is also interesting to see in the link that you supplied that even the God of analog, Michael Fremer said there was nothing digital sounding about the DEQX. Again everyone has their own preferences, but I will say again, any technology, WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, can give good results. You have to do what works for you but the key to success is really knowing what you like, knowing what has to be done to achieve that and then doing it properly.


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 6:48 pm 
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Digital sounds digital and analogue sounds analog
What really is funny is most digital manufacturers like to advertise that their gear sounds analog like


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 8:18 pm 
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Pelliott321 wrote:
Digital sounds digital and analogue sounds analog
What really is funny is most digital manufacturers like to advertise that their gear sounds analog like


So I guess you have listened to more gear than Michael Fremer.


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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 10:14 pm 
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tomp wrote:
Pelliott321 wrote:
Digital sounds digital and analogue sounds analog
What really is funny is most digital manufacturers like to advertise that their gear sounds analog like


So I guess you have listened to more gear than Michael Fremer.

I would venture a guess that Fremer's system, that is based on SS amps and Wilson speakers, may mask the issues with the DEQX that Paul and others have detected and find objectionable.

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PostPosted: September 1st, 2021, 11:59 pm 
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I've heard Tom P's Egg System - and always thought it sounded excellent. I'm sure in the new room it's been taken up to the next level.

I'm a passive guy - but can certainly appreciate the active world. I always said my final system would be active; but while I continue to shuffle through gear (including DIY), I like that convenience of passing along a passive system to friends and family. Nobody (except people who are truly invested in this hobby) will want to bother with additional pre -- > active xover --> multiple amps, etc.

Also, I haven't met everyone in this group, but I get the impression that many here have pretty nice systems.

I would be aweomse if we can organize double-blinded tests of various DACs, USB Cables, and other gear we want to test out. Often times I don't hear the difference, and when I do, it's only when I know which items are in my system. I've also found it hard to conduct such testing with family members - they are just not as critical about gear as I know my fellow forum members are.

In due time, I may be able to host a small get-together at my place.


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PostPosted: September 2nd, 2021, 6:59 am 
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No I have not heard MF system, but I have heard equipment he has glorified in his writings that I would not own if they were free.
This past year I have been working on my digital side and got it sound very good with the Innuous Zenith and the BorderPatrol DAC plus some tweaks, so much so I had not been listening to any vinyl.
Recently I built a phono preamp kit for a friend so I played some lp’s to check it out and discovered not only was this highly touted $2k kit was quite lacking but so was my analog side lacking too. Once I straightened out my analog problems I could finish the phono kit.
I volunteered to build this kit so I could review it. It was so bad I decided not to review it
Same thing with a pair of $2k speakers I was to evaluate. They were sooooo bad I decided not to review also.
These two experiences have brought me the decision to give up on this reviewing gig. It’s all lies, more smoke and mirrors that the manufacturers do.


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